Belay loop failure reddit.
Harnesses with double belay loops.
Belay loop failure reddit. My fiance is not super into that yet so she uses slings girth hitched to her harness (girth Does this mean to use it on my belay loop as I would any other time somebody was climbing say top rope? So I would run the rope through a carabiner on the belay anchor and then to the device? Whats the prepare part of my setup? Unclip roll n lock from harness, clip rope and belay loop directly. The carabiner somehow got pushed up against a hold and unclipped from the belay loop leaving the climber stranded mid-route. Jan 20, 2022 · Always belay standing, with two hands on the rope, eyes on the climber. I have been climbing for about 2 years, but only bouldering and top roping indoors, and I have only ever used a typical ATC belay device, which I am very comfortable with. This prevents slack from building up in the rope, no need to stop and feed it through the devices. The prusik isn’t meant to take the weight of the climber, just enough to break the rappel while still relying on the rappel device, carabiner, belay loop to bear the weight. That's what my belay device did the whole time I knew it before the fatal fall and I assume that had something to do with its failure (edited to reframe in answer of original post! thanks for giving me this space to air my grievances!) Swami belts and to my understanding early harnesses didn't have belay loops, so you'd use the loop of rope you were tied into instead of a belay loop. It also allows you to remain connected while you test your rappel setup. For aid, I'd use a daisy on each loop, and an adjustable Fifi through the tie in points. I know that there are some newer harnesses that include redundant belay loops, but it is still generally considered to strong to fail. My usual preference for building an anchor on trad routes is the standard three piece system using a cordalette. It's like saying "check out this anchor i build, It has 6 bomber cams in it, no way it will fail!" Here’s my problem, that situation is annoying at best and seems very unsafe at worst. On a mobile temp setup for an army recruiting rock wall, one of the auto-belays got stuck once, as in it wouldn't let the climber down. Something to be aware of: there's a difference between an auto belay failing due to some design or manufacturing flaw and failing due to wear and tear. The most efficient way to anchor at the top of a route is by using the rope that is attached to you and clove hitching it to the masterpoint. In September, after a four year long legal battle over an auto belay accident, Vertical World publicly announced a shocking $6m settlement. Rope goes through each bit of gear and is clove-hitched back to an HMS on the figure of eight rope loop at the harness (not belay loop). 20 The belay loop is the strongest part of the climbing harness, so why do so many climbers not trust it? It’s very common to see climbers backing up their belay loop with a separate piece of webbing or clipping their belay carabiner through the waist and leg tie-in points to avoid the belay loop. The waist belt was connected to the leg loops by the tie-in loop of the rope which in turn formed the belay loop where the belay device was clipped in. 2. Yes, your sling, belay loop, and your rope are "single points of failure", but 1. If orange is visible on any part of the two tie-in points, this indicates that the protective ballistic outer material has been compromised and the structural materials are now vulnerable to wear. Unclip jumar from harness, place on rope and off i go. I’ve been seeing more people bringing up followers on multi pitch routes using grigri‘s from above, i. You made an excellent choice! If orange is visible on the belay loop, the loop has been compromised and the harness should be retired immediately. However, I am looking to get What is the practical difference between a harness with a belay loop vs. I've never used an auto belay, but I'd imagine your just clipping into a locking 'biner on the end of the rope. Harness isn't bulky but holds a lot of gear and is padded enough to be comfortable on multi pitch. a harness with two tie-in loops? Does the latter have disadvantages with regards to abrasion or longetivity? I often see that ultralight ski mountainering harnesses do only have those tie-in loops instead of one belay loop. I took a leap and decided to accept. With the plastic not being connected to anything, that would lead to wear in one spot (where gear settles on the gear loop) and eventual failure. True falls at odd angles make the shunt fail. ). It is an autobelay failure because the autobelay doesn't have a partner check like a traditional belay system. Your belay loop is meant to be free to move for even wear and ideally should be used for metal gear like biners. even the premise of such a law would be absurd- isn't the primary reason for single-loop harnesses to make it safer, in that there is only one tie in point for easy visual inspection? Are they also banning belay loops? those are definitely accidents waiting to happen, what with the whole single point of failure. You made an excellent choice! We would like to show you a description here but the site won’t allow us. carabiners) goes on the belay loop. Stop over complicating things Have fun with your 3 inch range of motion while you try to pull the rope and set the next rap. This provides good safety without having to fully transition to just the munter. I hope this post isn't too redundant. It's usually cut ropes or failure to use belay device correctly. Backup knots aren't good enough, use a secondary device. I'm looking to buy my first belay device. I went to a gym in my home town recently and noticed they are teaching the climber to clip into the belay loop using an already tied figure 8 with a carabiner at the end. I witnessed that accident and that particular failure of the shunt was complete and disastrous. , in a different forum. You are adding unnecesary elements of failure in the system , its easier when you have many carabiners (they push against each other or cross load when touching the sling ) in the belay loop like when doing rope work to getting ready to climb the rope or abseil and you avoid the uncesary friction of the loop against the sling (most harness have lowering: you stay on belay, and the belayer lowers you down using his belaying device. I got to watch a failure test on old belay loop and while it was old and in rough condition, it still failed a bit above a significant lead fall. And I'll have a prussik backup onto the rope below the belay/rappel device, so its kinda redundant anyway. Currently I can only belay top rope, but I will take a lead course in a few weeks. Testing the device near the ground with simple falls is not adequate. Is your partner also directly through the bolts with a biner on the belay loop? Now you’re completely on top of each other. The smart is my favourite belay device. Still super ok enough if you grab a lighter and melt all that fuzz back to the main part of the loop. Reply reply More repliesMore replies Scarlet-Fire_77 • The sling extends the belay device above the back-up knot. One thing you might consider if you want to be extra safe is placing one of your devices on the harness tie-in points instead of the belay loop, passing a carabiner/quicklink through them. So long as the carabiner is being loaded along the spine, it's a matter of preference whether you use the wide or narrow end to belay from. I use it sometimes with a normal screw karabiner and sometimes with a special screw karabiner that prevents crossloading it’s both very convenient to use. Feb 22, 2020 · Understanding auto belays can be a little unerving if you've not used one before, we cover how they work and how to use them safely. While a ground belay may not involve the inherent dangers—such as anchor failure—associated with multi-pitch belays, a ground belay has dangers all its own. People girth hitch slings to their belay loop all the time, and technically it should work, but can cause wear on the same point on the loop (look up Todd Skinner's accident to see why this is potentially dangerous). I've seen the Edelrid Pinch and love the fact that you can clip it directly to the belay loop. IME putting the wide end through the belay loop makes the carabiner marginally more resistant to going cock-eyed and crossloading. I wish this had some break point stats for failure. Reply reply rockwarzz • Put a munter to your belay loop on the brake strand, then continue as you have been to release the atc. You are mostly passive rappeling: you slide down along the rope, using your rappelling device (same as a belaying device, but used differently), the belayer is not involved, you are the active party. Question on harnesses that have two belay loops. Then your 120 degrees rule for tri-loading seems dangerous to me. That practice has stayed common in the UK as each new generation of climbers learn from the older generation. This can be avoided by using a version that has wings. The Belay loop is doubled nylon webbing to avoid it being a single point of failure. Possible solutions would be to service the auto belay so the recoil moves with the climber, or to change the carabiner type to one that can not open against someone’s body. I started working as a contractor for Belay doing virtual assistant work in early February 2023. I tried to come up with a better analogy, but the best I could do is: It's like riding a tandem bike by yourself and only having control of the front brakes. On multi pitch trad routed - if you're using one belay loop for a second point on the anchor, boom, you gave another free belay loop for the leader. Oct 27, 2006 · Perhaps, in light of the tragic consequences of a probably belay loop failure for one of the brightest stars in our climbing community, it would be better/more respectful to carry on a discussion about belay loops, etc. They are rated for 22kN or higher and can be loaded in many directions at once (unlike carabiners), so you shouldn't have to worry about that. Is this a potential hazard for them? I didn’t want to approach them and say this was a safety concern if it isn’t a The smart is my favourite belay device. 2 days ago · An investigation of the climbing harness that failed and sent Lander, Wyo. As far as I’m aware there’s only ever been 1 case of a harness failing at the belay loop / tie in point. Here’s an idea, belay from your belay loop and don’t let go of the break strand. There's only 1 rope, there's only 1 belay biner on the other end, the system is only redundant where it needs to be. Basically they are more dangerous than a stitch/tube belay device. Tying a proper knot is integral to climbing, I think not emphasizing this principle is contradictory to nearly everything we, and it stands for. If they fail at either of those things, yes you could be injured or die. The entire existence of their market is gravely threatened right now by the failure to make toprope autobelays sufficiently foolproof. Now as far as I'm aware there is no standard in climbing for teaching people to place the basket on their belay loop. Of course not. The belay loop is the strongest part of the climbing harness, so why do so many climbers not trust it? It’s very common to see climbers backing up their belay loop with a separate piece of webbing or clipping their belay carabiner through the waist and leg tie-in points to avoid the belay loop. Can you just belay using one of them? Or do you have to use both at the same time? Any other advantages/ disadvantages? If you look at the typical belay loop it is not single webbing loop but doubled. Rope is also considered redundant piece, the core of the rope is made of many redundant threads. especially for lead climbing I like it a lot more than the grigri. Cordelette is for Foot loop for jumar and backups First, a harness belay loop can take this and much more. A lot of old timers continue it out of habit because why not, it works just as well. I really liked the Grigri for top roping. If orange is visible on the belay loop, the loop has been compromised and the harness should be retired immediately. I don't have a connect adjust in front of me right now but I can tell you that on the evolv adjust, the way the rope is stitched together at the end of the loop makes the belay loop seem to be the better option. The webbing goes all the way around the harness correct? That goes straight into the belay loop. Never heard of an accident where that's the point of failure. I tied a prussik around the rope, then tie that into my backpack. I run a long sling from my haul loop to their belay loop. They are supposed to be designed to fail that way, not the other. A leg loop is a less critical component, and even so, I'll bet you can jerry rig something that doesn't really compromise it's strength too much. Exactly. Frequently do this with my Grigri when lowering people heavier than me so I have more control on my 9mm rope. Good luck. Anyway my partner pretty much insisted I get a fireman's belay as well because "if the prussik knot touches the ATC it will unlock". NB: If you get to the top of the belay and you have to yank the webbing to make it retract fully, tell the staff. Jul 8, 2013 · To the OP - There's a few situations when you may be belaying and not tied into the rope yourself. a harness with two tie-in loops? Does the latter have disadvantages with regards to abrasion or longetivity? I just got the bd belay biner that keeps it in it's place with the chamber for the belay loop; I love it and would suggest it to anyone doing sport/ rope solo / trad. You can add more friction when lowering by redirecting the rope down coming out from the belay device with a tiny carabiner attached to your belay loop. This lawsuit really amped up the conversation. This is important because if the Prusik loop gets drawn into the belay device it can get jammed, making it impossible to move up or down the rope, or it can actually prevent the Prusik from jamming and so rendering the back-up useless. Basically, the belay loop isn't designed to be tied into. You can also clip the bottom loop directly into your biner (see fig 14 here ) but this greatly reduces the friction and can cross load the fig 8. The pro and con of autobelay is your safety is pretty much all in your hands! I always do a verbal safety check out loud (yes, I talk to myself) ensuring the clip is locked, through the belay loop, and my harness is tight and double-backed. The end result is that me and my partners changed our double checking routine before climbing to encompass showing that the belay loop is sitting in the correct part of any carabiner that has It was a locker on the gym auto-belay, just didn’t get it fully through the loop (my fault) one time and semi-closed on the loop itself causing the abrasion. You should however be aware that it has some failure scenarios, as shown in this Yann Camus video, so you should take some precautions when using it. If you want a nice smooth belay device, get a grigri :) Moved PermanentlyThe document has moved here. Many climbers never leave the comfort of the ground to belay. If the belay loop is too strong to fail, why do we tie in to two separate points on the harness when we climb while the other end of the rope is secured to a single point? The use of auto belays has been a hotly debated topic in the indoor climbing industry for the last 10 years. . you are attached to the rope with a knot. Pretty sure the bar stitch is just on both sides of the belay loop and the stitching you see there is just to keep the webbing in place on the harness. The only actual mechanical failure of an auto-belay I've ever heard of/seen was the opposite problem. The way the stitching gets pulled in the belay loop orientation seems to be less intense on the system than the tie in points. It's certainly not necessary, but aesthetics aside it's far from pointless. Instead of a doubled sling you can use a quickdraw, which may be a bit neater. You know the history and can inspect them. Jul 22, 2025 · Harnesses: Belay Loop. clipped on the Once I test that the VT is secure I'll remove the pulley from the belay loop and attach a rappel device in its place, secure the foot loop on a harness gear loop, and descend with the rap device/VT. Bolts can fail, even if they look okay (corrosion can be hidden, glue might not have set properly, etc. I don't belay with D-shaped biners for this reason, and I think the wider more even basket of a pear biner is designed for belaying and is vital for Munter hitches. Fucking ridiculous. Putting the 'biner through both the leg loop and the waist loop would tri-load the 'biner, and placing it only through the waist loop could risk a back injury. By keeping the rope taught and the micro traxion oriented upright the rope feeds through the devices seamlessly. When I first started using it, I accidentally a few times loaded my belay loop above the blocking metal part to the lower smaller part of the carabiner. They are not teaching them to tie a figure 8 follow through for both the leg loop and the waist loop. What is the practical difference between a harness with a belay loop vs. Climbers should be aware that materials act strangely under high loads. We first responded by removing our Perfect Descent auto belays (Perfect Descent was a defendant in Clip it to you belay loop. Investing in something new and more complicated, with more potential failure modes, instead of focusing on solutions for the toprope issue, doesn't strike me as an obviously good idea in the circumstances. There you go. They can continue doing whatever, and if the heavier guy falls, I've got the whole body weight of another person as a back up. When in doubt, use the belay loop, that's what it is designed for. That said, how is it any worse than the screwgate to the belay loop that's standard when sports climbing? If it was an issue we'd have a different way for the belayer to tie in. climber Todd Skinner plunging to his death in Yosemite National Park last October found no signs of contamination that might have weakened the safety webbing. Annual or bi-annual inspections, as required by the manufacturer, involve disassembly, inspection, repair, testing and recertification of the unit. I had added (and tested under load) a leg loop clipped prusik knot to the brake strand of the rope, with ATC connected to my belay loop via a locker, fairly standard I think. There is only 1 reported case of a belay loop failing, and the harness visually looked like shit. Failure to clip in is WAY more likely than equipment failure in autobelay accidents, at least with modern autobelays (the original versions had some issues but they weren't designed for climbing use and I haven't seen one in use in a gym in a decade). Reply reply davcro • A locking carabiner takes the place of the belay loop and attaches to the harness via the same two points that cradle the rope when you tie in. Hi all, So I have read through a bunch of other threads on here about choosing a belay device, but I haven't found one that answers all of my questions yet. I always clove in with the rope while climbing, but I’ll use a sling or a PAS as a personal anchor while rappelling. It was a locker on the gym auto-belay, just didn’t get it fully through the loop (my fault) one time and semi-closed on the loop itself causing the abrasion. Reply reply magorah • Using a double length runner girth hitched to your tie-in, knotted as shown and clipped to your belay loop allows you to unclip one end from your belay loop and tether yourself to the anchor on multi-rappels. Does anyone have experience with the Pinch? How does it feel compared to the Grigri? Is it good for lead? Thanks! We would like to show you a description here but the site won’t allow us. Is this a potential hazard for them? I didn’t want to approach them and say this was a safety concern if it isn’t a I'm presuming you mean tying on a bite then clipping that bite into the belay loop; while acceptable it's better to remove a point of failure and make it redundant by tying into the top and bottom loops of the harness. It looks neat but certainly gets weird looks if someone notices it. Stuff like prusiks, gloves, belay plate and a nanotrax+tiblock for rescue. Helps with the cluster. The finished knot is not much larger than a normal figure 8, and the extra bulk is diagonally down towards the belay loop which doesnt bother me as much as a stopper knot would. Failure of Belay Loopby EMDesjardins | Sep, J, AM A close call that I am aware of with an auto belay was due to someone's t-shirt and/or belay loop getting stuck in the carabiner gate and preventing the gate from fully closing and autolocking. The belay loop is meant to interact with only hardware. It’s likely to get caught in your belay device. Once the lowering is complete, the munter is easily removable and belay can continue from the atc in guide mode. A new Grigri like device from Edelrid with an interesting extra feature or two, but one in particular that makes me nervous. Harnesses with double belay loops. Keeps the front 4 loops clear for cams/nuts and slings while I climb. That makes you safe when pulling down the rope for the next rappel. I generally prefer to clove hitch into the master point, attached a 2nd locker for my follower to clip into, and use a reverso on the shelf as my belay device. So when a climber is on belay, the belay carabiner is loaded at three points--two on the harness and one where the rope slides. It's missing a key safety feature. The belay loop makes things quicker and slicker, try using an alpine harness at an indoor wall and you'll see what I mean. Belay biner and device, yes, they are not redundant. You can girth hitch your belay loop, its safe. Those that have been climbing for years, is there still a fear of gear failure and falling? In both instances, i never rely on only one bolt. The hard points typically are reinforced against abrasion. The belayer's whole job is to manage slack and ensure that the belay locker is not getting unscrewed or cross-loaded. Eventually rope-harness contact will wear out the contact points on the harness, but since the belay loop is a critical point with no redundancy, its failure would be catastrophic. Adjust length such that all strands are tight - pretty much always out of reach hence the clove hitches on the harness. Its typically better practice to girth hitch though the two loops on your harness the belay loop is looped though. The 5th loop holds all of my nonsense gear that I carry for non climbing/emergencies. The reason you don't want to girth hitch your PAS to the belay loop is that it will wear the same spot on the belay loop over and over again. The single-length sling is, technically, non-redundant, but so is the belay loop, rappel device and biner, and rope, and the 22kn sling is wild overkill for the forces involved in the rappel. They are over-engineered. Learn how to belay a follower from above on a trad climb or multi-pitch sport route. Use it or loose it? - SuperTopo's climbing discussion forum is the world's most popular community discussion forum for people who actively climb outdoors. This means that, in this configuration, it relies on a push button, an internal safety that won't allow it to unlock when cammed and The belay loop is the best example. This device can connect directly to the harness (or anchor for a top down belay) without a carabiner passing through the two closed loop. can just pull with arms for a short distance if longer ill do a foot loop. I had a hard time finding any information out there from actual contractors who work with them and their experiences when I was deciding to accept a contract with them. We would like to show you a description here but the site won’t allow us. e. To be clear, I wouldn't attempt that with the belt, tie in points, or belay loop. Both my harnesses (old BD Momentum, and Misty Mountain Caddy) are webbing with plastic around them, so that particular point of failure shouldn't ever be a problem. It’s basically used like a normal tuber but with extra security. Thanks for posting. This is the kind of thing that reassures me when I come off the rock, knowing that all of the gear I'm on has been subjected to these tests and passed. Or wrap it up tightly with white athletic tape to prevent additional wear. It was after many years of friction from aid climbing, and I’m sure it looked just like this early on The rule of thumb is that soft gear goes through the hard points, hard gear (I. brshvqgrcxfrdqkhyvtygfivcnttjefjominwaumoceadzs